1 00:00:07,574 --> 00:00:08,942 [siren wailing] 2 00:00:10,210 --> 00:00:12,479 I've been avoiding this street for a while. 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:15,516 Every time I've been here, I've avoided it. 4 00:00:18,719 --> 00:00:20,487 He's the scummiest person on this planet, 5 00:00:20,587 --> 00:00:22,256 so no one is below Jesse. 6 00:00:22,356 --> 00:00:25,792 But in his mind, he saw women with vulnerabilities... 7 00:00:27,094 --> 00:00:28,095 as targets. 8 00:00:29,696 --> 00:00:33,200 I immediately thought, if he's here to kill me, 9 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:36,169 at least my parents are not gonna be collateral damage. 10 00:00:36,270 --> 00:00:37,271 And I got in the car. 11 00:00:38,772 --> 00:00:40,641 [Amy] People just knew he was violent. 12 00:00:40,741 --> 00:00:42,876 They just knew he would make threats. 13 00:00:42,976 --> 00:00:44,578 I don't know if anyone ever knew... 14 00:00:46,413 --> 00:00:48,615 he would harm anyone like that. 15 00:00:48,715 --> 00:00:51,051 [Jenn] I look at the phone and it registers what the picture is. 16 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:53,554 [Amy] I thought it was a joke. 17 00:00:53,654 --> 00:00:56,790 No one would joke about that, but Jesse would. 18 00:00:56,890 --> 00:00:58,892 And as I'm shutting the phone, he looks at me and he goes, 19 00:00:58,992 --> 00:00:59,993 "Do you believe me now?" 20 00:01:02,195 --> 00:01:04,798 [Elizabeth] When it comes to love, betrayal is the death of 21 00:01:04,897 --> 00:01:06,266 a thousand dreams... 22 00:01:06,366 --> 00:01:08,268 [paparazzi] Armie, Elizabeth, over here! 23 00:01:09,336 --> 00:01:12,005 [Elizabeth] ...and the unraveling of countless lies. 24 00:01:12,105 --> 00:01:16,143 You can spend years picking up the pieces, examining them, 25 00:01:16,243 --> 00:01:18,845 rearranging them, digging through the past 26 00:01:18,946 --> 00:01:20,013 to make sense of it all. 27 00:01:20,113 --> 00:01:21,315 [instrumental "Toxic" by Britney Spears plays] 28 00:01:21,414 --> 00:01:23,083 Navigating through my personal heartbreak 29 00:01:23,183 --> 00:01:26,053 took me back to my roots as an investigative journalist. 30 00:01:26,152 --> 00:01:27,821 -Hi, I'm Elizabeth Chambers. -Elizabeth Chambers. 31 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:28,922 Elizabeth Chambers, 32 00:01:29,021 --> 00:01:30,657 outside the Los Angeles Police Department. 33 00:01:30,757 --> 00:01:31,892 [instrumental "Toxic" continues] 34 00:01:31,992 --> 00:01:33,860 It ignited a curiosity inside of me about 35 00:01:33,961 --> 00:01:35,195 love that fractures... 36 00:01:35,295 --> 00:01:36,330 You can't escape it. 37 00:01:36,430 --> 00:01:37,664 [Elizabeth] ...inflicts lasting trauma... 38 00:01:37,764 --> 00:01:38,832 He broke me. 39 00:01:38,932 --> 00:01:40,533 Did you think there was a chance he could kill you? 40 00:01:40,634 --> 00:01:41,568 Oh, yeah. 41 00:01:41,668 --> 00:01:42,803 [Elizabeth] ...and can lead to tragedy. 42 00:01:42,902 --> 00:01:44,271 Unimaginable loss. 43 00:01:44,371 --> 00:01:46,773 [Elizabeth] I feel that it's part of my calling to meet with 44 00:01:46,872 --> 00:01:50,143 the victims, the survivors, to listen to their stories... 45 00:01:50,243 --> 00:01:51,745 You're still living in fear. 46 00:01:51,845 --> 00:01:52,779 Every single day. 47 00:01:52,878 --> 00:01:54,914 ...show how it can happen to anyone, 48 00:01:55,015 --> 00:01:56,483 and expose the truth. 49 00:01:58,185 --> 00:02:01,455 I'm Elizabeth Chambers, and this is "Toxic." 50 00:02:01,555 --> 00:02:03,357 [instrumental "Toxic" concludes] 51 00:02:11,798 --> 00:02:13,266 [Elizabeth] This is Jesse Winnick. 52 00:02:13,367 --> 00:02:15,302 Keep walking. Keep walking. 53 00:02:15,402 --> 00:02:18,405 [Elizabeth] According to multiple sources, he wasn't just a troubled kid. 54 00:02:20,841 --> 00:02:23,110 Some believed he was something far darker, 55 00:02:24,177 --> 00:02:25,545 even calling him a sociopath, 56 00:02:26,613 --> 00:02:29,416 a manipulator who would charm you, pull you in, 57 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:30,484 and keep you there. 58 00:02:32,819 --> 00:02:33,820 Wow. 59 00:02:34,788 --> 00:02:37,824 There was something about him that caused these people to 60 00:02:37,924 --> 00:02:40,127 still be in contact with him. 61 00:02:40,227 --> 00:02:44,097 I mean, you look what happened with Jenn, his ex-girlfriend. 62 00:02:45,198 --> 00:02:47,367 [Elizabeth] Most people don't enter a relationship thinking 63 00:02:47,466 --> 00:02:49,202 it will be problematic. 64 00:02:49,302 --> 00:02:54,775 With Jenn, I can remember him being playful and handsy, 65 00:02:54,875 --> 00:02:56,476 relatively loving. 66 00:02:56,576 --> 00:02:57,844 [Elizabeth] But what do you do when 67 00:02:57,944 --> 00:03:01,014 the charm you fell for turns out to be a facade? 68 00:03:02,349 --> 00:03:05,118 [Edward] We want to believe that we can help this person that 69 00:03:05,218 --> 00:03:08,221 we're in love with, when in reality, 70 00:03:08,321 --> 00:03:12,125 that person is simply going to use and manipulate you. 71 00:03:13,293 --> 00:03:16,930 [Elizabeth] When it comes to Jenn Holman, she's just lucky to be alive. 72 00:03:23,737 --> 00:03:25,572 So, give me your background. 73 00:03:25,672 --> 00:03:28,775 Where you grew up, and what was your childhood like? 74 00:03:28,875 --> 00:03:32,245 So, I grew up right down the street, actually, in Reseda. 75 00:03:32,345 --> 00:03:36,083 I had two parents that, you know, were very in love 76 00:03:36,183 --> 00:03:38,785 with each other, and I was their adopted only child. 77 00:03:38,885 --> 00:03:40,487 -So... -Oh wow. 78 00:03:40,587 --> 00:03:42,889 I was all they had, and they were all I had. 79 00:03:44,324 --> 00:03:45,792 My childhood was very uneventful, 80 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,061 peaceful, and calm. 81 00:03:49,162 --> 00:03:50,930 And after high school, what were your plans? 82 00:03:51,031 --> 00:03:53,133 I was like, you know what? I'm going to just travel. 83 00:03:53,233 --> 00:03:54,935 I'm going to go enjoy my life. 84 00:03:55,035 --> 00:03:56,837 So, I ended up working for a band. 85 00:03:56,937 --> 00:03:58,371 [crowd cheering] 86 00:03:58,472 --> 00:04:00,273 New city every night type thing. 87 00:04:01,608 --> 00:04:04,978 I did start dating somebody pretty seriously, 88 00:04:05,979 --> 00:04:08,882 and I ended up getting pregnant. 89 00:04:08,982 --> 00:04:11,017 And we gave our son up for adoption. 90 00:04:11,118 --> 00:04:13,019 I was kind of like, 91 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,489 I want to heal, I want to be in a better place. 92 00:04:15,589 --> 00:04:18,190 I'm just gonna be single for the rest of my life, 93 00:04:18,291 --> 00:04:19,826 and I'll be happy with that. 94 00:04:19,926 --> 00:04:20,894 Wow. 95 00:04:20,994 --> 00:04:22,262 You kind of had just written it off. 96 00:04:22,362 --> 00:04:23,697 -Yep. -[Elizabeth] Enter... 97 00:04:24,931 --> 00:04:26,066 -Enter Jesse. -[Elizabeth] Enter Jesse. 98 00:04:27,868 --> 00:04:30,070 Talk to me about how you met Jesse. 99 00:04:30,170 --> 00:04:32,472 So, he was hanging out with some girls that I had been 100 00:04:32,572 --> 00:04:33,940 hanging out with for a while. 101 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,209 We were at BJ's Brewery one night for one of 102 00:04:36,308 --> 00:04:37,811 my friend's birthdays. 103 00:04:37,911 --> 00:04:39,880 And he's sitting a couple seats down from me. 104 00:04:39,980 --> 00:04:41,381 And he's, like, staring, like, trying to 105 00:04:41,481 --> 00:04:44,584 get my attention, and he goes, "Hey, it's Jennifer, right?" 106 00:04:44,683 --> 00:04:45,886 And I don't go by Jennifer. 107 00:04:45,986 --> 00:04:47,888 Like, even my parents at that point didn't call me 108 00:04:47,988 --> 00:04:49,656 Jennifer anymore. I go by Jenn. 109 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:50,957 And I go, 110 00:04:51,057 --> 00:04:52,859 "I've heard enough about you 111 00:04:52,959 --> 00:04:53,894 "from other girls in this group. 112 00:04:53,994 --> 00:04:55,428 "I don't want anything to do with you. 113 00:04:55,529 --> 00:04:56,730 Please just stay away from me." 114 00:04:58,298 --> 00:05:00,567 -[ice clinking] -[faint bar chatter] 115 00:05:02,102 --> 00:05:05,071 Jesse dated or slept with a lot of women. 116 00:05:05,172 --> 00:05:07,507 A lot of them were in the same friends group. 117 00:05:07,607 --> 00:05:10,410 I do know that many of them knew each other. 118 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,849 My name is Amy, and my brother is Jesse Winnick. 119 00:05:17,951 --> 00:05:19,719 Jesse was three years older than -- 120 00:05:19,820 --> 00:05:20,720 was -- 121 00:05:20,821 --> 00:05:23,323 Jesse is three years older than me. 122 00:05:23,423 --> 00:05:26,193 He's someone who feeds off of other people's energy, 123 00:05:26,293 --> 00:05:28,094 and he sucks them dry and then... 124 00:05:29,129 --> 00:05:32,299 jumps to the next person for an emotional supply, really. 125 00:05:36,503 --> 00:05:39,039 [Jenn] Days later, we were at another bar. 126 00:05:39,139 --> 00:05:40,140 [ambient chatter] 127 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:41,441 Jesse comes and sits with me 128 00:05:42,475 --> 00:05:45,378 and I notice his eyes, so light blue that you could almost 129 00:05:45,478 --> 00:05:47,380 see through them. 130 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,649 And he goes, "Jenn, just give me your number." 131 00:05:49,749 --> 00:05:52,018 And I was like, "Oh, you know my name. 132 00:05:54,054 --> 00:05:55,021 Fine." 133 00:05:57,057 --> 00:06:02,362 We hung out that first night and we went back to my house 134 00:06:02,462 --> 00:06:05,599 and we hooked up and that was not something that I did. 135 00:06:05,699 --> 00:06:07,934 I've never moved that fast with somebody. 136 00:06:09,169 --> 00:06:11,972 And the next day he's like, "Hey, can you take me home?" 137 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:15,675 We get there and he's like, "Hey, let me pack a picnic 138 00:06:15,775 --> 00:06:18,411 and we can go take a canyon drive and just hang out." 139 00:06:18,511 --> 00:06:22,249 And he was so nice and so genuine. 140 00:06:22,349 --> 00:06:23,617 And at this point, are you both living 141 00:06:23,717 --> 00:06:25,385 with your parents still? -[Jenn] Yeah. 142 00:06:25,485 --> 00:06:27,354 I think I was 22 and he was 24. 143 00:06:29,222 --> 00:06:31,957 When was the first time that you actually met Jenn? 144 00:06:32,058 --> 00:06:34,294 I do not remember my first time meeting Jenn. 145 00:06:35,428 --> 00:06:37,530 I just think I remember her becoming a fixture 146 00:06:37,631 --> 00:06:38,765 all of a sudden. 147 00:06:38,865 --> 00:06:41,568 Because Jesse, when he starts dating someone, 148 00:06:41,668 --> 00:06:43,003 it's fast and furious. 149 00:06:44,738 --> 00:06:46,606 So I think it was just like, this is Jenn, 150 00:06:46,706 --> 00:06:48,041 this is my girlfriend. 151 00:06:49,843 --> 00:06:50,844 [Jenn] I did meet Amy. 152 00:06:52,012 --> 00:06:53,813 She was just like, "Yeah, I'll probably be 153 00:06:53,914 --> 00:06:54,915 seeing you around." 154 00:06:55,015 --> 00:06:56,983 And it was just -- it was very nice. 155 00:06:58,218 --> 00:07:02,155 But Jesse's mom, Hadas, she just was like, 156 00:07:02,255 --> 00:07:03,256 [flatly] "Oh, hi." 157 00:07:04,224 --> 00:07:07,661 [normally] And then went on with whatever she was doing. 158 00:07:07,761 --> 00:07:09,562 And I was like, that's weird. 159 00:07:09,663 --> 00:07:12,098 My parents are always really nice to people I bring home. 160 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:14,634 What was that? 161 00:07:14,734 --> 00:07:18,505 But Amy and Hadas are close. They're super close. 162 00:07:18,605 --> 00:07:21,707 And so I'm like, maybe I'm just imagining things. 163 00:07:23,877 --> 00:07:25,378 [Elizabeth] So your mom was divorced at this time. 164 00:07:25,478 --> 00:07:26,579 [Amy] Yeah. 165 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,649 And our physical environment at home, 166 00:07:31,051 --> 00:07:34,587 it was tense. We would all walk on eggshells. 167 00:07:34,688 --> 00:07:36,957 Because Jesse's moods were pretty hair-trigger... 168 00:07:38,124 --> 00:07:39,359 for many years. 169 00:07:42,362 --> 00:07:45,198 I can remember him calling my mom a bitch, pretty young. 170 00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:50,070 By the time he was in fourth grade, he was having trouble 171 00:07:50,170 --> 00:07:52,672 adhering to rules in the classroom. 172 00:07:52,772 --> 00:07:54,774 In middle school, he was getting 173 00:07:54,874 --> 00:07:56,109 severely bullied. 174 00:07:56,209 --> 00:07:58,678 I think he started getting into physical fights 175 00:07:58,778 --> 00:07:59,846 pretty young as well. 176 00:08:00,814 --> 00:08:03,183 Eventually, in high school, like, he would leave school. 177 00:08:03,283 --> 00:08:05,085 He didn't fit in. 178 00:08:05,185 --> 00:08:09,089 They just kind of told him to take his GED and leave. 179 00:08:10,090 --> 00:08:13,660 At that point, he sort of focused on us. 180 00:08:15,862 --> 00:08:19,832 I can remember, I was 17, standing in the kitchen. 181 00:08:19,933 --> 00:08:22,769 He came up behind me and kicked me really hard 182 00:08:22,869 --> 00:08:24,070 between the legs. 183 00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:26,906 And I, like, doubled over in pain and started crying 184 00:08:27,007 --> 00:08:28,141 and caught my breath. 185 00:08:28,241 --> 00:08:31,244 And I asked him, "What -- why would you do that?" 186 00:08:31,344 --> 00:08:33,246 And he said, "I just wanted to know if it hurt a woman 187 00:08:33,346 --> 00:08:34,780 to be kicked there." 188 00:08:34,881 --> 00:08:38,051 And I know you've said there are so many reasons why Jesse 189 00:08:38,150 --> 00:08:40,053 is the way he is, 190 00:08:40,153 --> 00:08:43,188 but a lot of people say, like, they just came out with 191 00:08:43,289 --> 00:08:44,457 the wires crossed. -Mm. 192 00:08:44,557 --> 00:08:46,292 Do you think that's the case with Jesse? 193 00:08:46,393 --> 00:08:48,828 As far as I understood, he was diagnosed with 194 00:08:48,928 --> 00:08:50,363 bipolar disorder as early as 195 00:08:50,463 --> 00:08:53,600 the mid-1990s, which at that time was 196 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:56,302 rare for someone his age to be diagnosed with it. 197 00:08:56,403 --> 00:08:59,472 Now, as much as mental health and mental illness can be 198 00:08:59,572 --> 00:09:02,275 a conversation adjacent to his behavior, 199 00:09:02,375 --> 00:09:03,643 it's never an excuse either. 200 00:09:05,211 --> 00:09:07,547 [Elizabeth] By the time Jesse's 15, his mom, Hadas, 201 00:09:07,647 --> 00:09:10,583 would call the police to help with his violent outbursts. 202 00:09:10,683 --> 00:09:12,719 But this was the mid-'90s, and mental health was not taken 203 00:09:12,819 --> 00:09:15,388 as seriously, nor were there as many resources. 204 00:09:15,488 --> 00:09:17,257 So they would take him to the station, put him in 205 00:09:17,357 --> 00:09:19,426 the drunk tank, and then return Jesse to his mother. 206 00:09:21,528 --> 00:09:24,564 [Amy] She has a pretty strict hold on the house. 207 00:09:24,664 --> 00:09:28,168 It's just that my brother is unmotherable and unparentable. 208 00:09:29,235 --> 00:09:30,837 [Elizabeth] That's a powerful statement. 209 00:09:30,937 --> 00:09:34,607 [Amy] It's kind of a gut-wrenching realization to come to. 210 00:09:34,707 --> 00:09:36,109 -Unmotherable. -Yeah. 211 00:09:38,878 --> 00:09:42,582 Every time Jesse returned, he would always return with 212 00:09:42,682 --> 00:09:45,452 what I now know as a love bombing. 213 00:09:45,552 --> 00:09:48,788 Like, "This won't happen again. Mom, let me stay. 214 00:09:48,888 --> 00:09:50,156 I'm on the straight and narrow." 215 00:09:51,391 --> 00:09:53,560 Even as an adult. 216 00:09:56,930 --> 00:09:58,598 [Elizabeth] What did you like about him? 217 00:09:58,698 --> 00:10:01,267 He was... he was funny. 218 00:10:02,735 --> 00:10:05,638 He let me talk. It wasn't always about him. 219 00:10:06,906 --> 00:10:09,776 I liked talking and being seen. 220 00:10:11,144 --> 00:10:14,781 And it was very weird because I had never dealt 221 00:10:14,881 --> 00:10:16,049 with somebody like him. 222 00:10:17,383 --> 00:10:19,252 I remember thinking... 223 00:10:19,352 --> 00:10:21,087 the [bleep] does she see in him? 224 00:10:21,187 --> 00:10:22,322 [Elizabeth] Did you think that you were 225 00:10:22,422 --> 00:10:24,724 falling in love with him? -Oh yeah. 226 00:10:24,824 --> 00:10:26,793 Like, almost right away. 227 00:10:26,893 --> 00:10:29,028 You know, one day we're coming back from Malibu 228 00:10:29,129 --> 00:10:32,132 and he turns and looks at me and he's like, "I love you." 229 00:10:32,232 --> 00:10:33,233 And I was like... 230 00:10:34,234 --> 00:10:36,269 "I didn't even think about that, but I love you too." 231 00:10:36,369 --> 00:10:38,738 And this was like, two months in, if that. 232 00:10:38,838 --> 00:10:42,242 Jesse really worked, I think, pretty hard to craft and curate 233 00:10:42,342 --> 00:10:44,711 an image of himself and of the relationship 234 00:10:44,811 --> 00:10:46,679 he was offering to Jenn. 235 00:10:46,779 --> 00:10:47,814 His mom was... 236 00:10:48,848 --> 00:10:51,084 uh, leery of our relationship. 237 00:10:52,652 --> 00:10:53,653 I get it now. 238 00:10:54,687 --> 00:10:59,159 Because when the other shoe dropped, it was startling. 239 00:10:59,259 --> 00:11:00,660 He's a shrewd human. 240 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,296 I know that as their relationship progressed, 241 00:11:03,396 --> 00:11:06,266 he was committing similar cycles that he was doing inside 242 00:11:06,366 --> 00:11:07,800 the house with Jenn. 243 00:11:09,102 --> 00:11:12,739 Aggressive, violent, very emotionally unstable. 244 00:11:15,241 --> 00:11:16,276 [Jenn] Three and a half months in, 245 00:11:17,377 --> 00:11:18,511 he's driving my car. 246 00:11:19,879 --> 00:11:23,750 And he goes, "Hey, I need to go pick up something." 247 00:11:23,850 --> 00:11:25,251 I was like, "What do you need to pick up?" 248 00:11:26,452 --> 00:11:28,555 And he's like, "Oh, yeah, I've been hanging out with 249 00:11:28,655 --> 00:11:29,756 a friend and doing cocaine." 250 00:11:32,025 --> 00:11:33,660 "If you're picking up drugs, you're not taking my car. 251 00:11:34,761 --> 00:11:35,728 Absolutely not." 252 00:11:37,163 --> 00:11:39,165 Then he lifted his hand 253 00:11:39,265 --> 00:11:42,435 and hit me in my chest right around here, 254 00:11:42,535 --> 00:11:45,638 looked at me and said, "Well, will you let me have it now?" 255 00:11:49,409 --> 00:11:50,743 -[Elizabeth] You said no to him, right? -Mm-hmm. 256 00:11:51,878 --> 00:11:53,079 [Elizabeth] And the reaction was really big. 257 00:11:53,179 --> 00:11:54,280 It was really big. 258 00:11:54,380 --> 00:11:56,382 He didn't like the word no, but they never do. 259 00:11:56,482 --> 00:11:58,418 [Jenn] Mm-mm. 260 00:11:58,518 --> 00:12:00,787 And when I didn't say anything and started crying, 261 00:12:00,887 --> 00:12:02,155 he goes, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 262 00:12:02,255 --> 00:12:03,723 "I didn't mean to do that. 263 00:12:03,823 --> 00:12:05,425 Maybe we should separate for a little while." 264 00:12:05,525 --> 00:12:06,693 And I said, "You know what? 265 00:12:06,793 --> 00:12:08,228 Just take the damn car." 266 00:12:08,328 --> 00:12:09,996 And I got out on the side of the road 267 00:12:10,096 --> 00:12:11,531 and called one of my friends to pick me up. 268 00:12:12,599 --> 00:12:13,900 Which is exactly what he wanted. 269 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,201 -He got what he wanted. -[Jenn] Yep. 270 00:12:16,369 --> 00:12:19,639 Then he started doing cocaine constantly. 271 00:12:20,940 --> 00:12:24,444 November -- he was coming down off of a high. 272 00:12:24,544 --> 00:12:27,680 I said something to him, pissed him off bad enough that 273 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:30,216 he backhanded me across the face so hard I fell on 274 00:12:30,316 --> 00:12:31,918 our friend's coffee table and broke it. 275 00:12:33,753 --> 00:12:37,123 When he sobered up, he saw that I had a mark on my face, 276 00:12:37,223 --> 00:12:38,458 and he goes, "What happened?" I said... 277 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,195 "You hit me...again." 278 00:12:43,496 --> 00:12:45,498 And then it was the, "I'm so sorry, it won't happen again. 279 00:12:45,598 --> 00:12:46,532 "I'm sorry, I need to learn 280 00:12:46,633 --> 00:12:48,134 "how to control myself when I'm high. 281 00:12:48,234 --> 00:12:49,402 I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." 282 00:12:51,871 --> 00:12:55,675 We were fine for about a couple weeks, and then on my birthday, 283 00:12:55,775 --> 00:12:58,144 the end of December, we had gone out to one of 284 00:12:58,244 --> 00:12:59,545 my friend's houses, 285 00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:01,648 Ryan's house. 286 00:13:05,752 --> 00:13:07,820 And Jesse goes, "Let me take the car." 287 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:09,422 And I was like, "No, it's my birthday. 288 00:13:09,522 --> 00:13:10,857 "I'm gonna go out with friends, and I'm going home 289 00:13:10,957 --> 00:13:12,725 and going to sleep." 290 00:13:12,825 --> 00:13:15,194 Right there in Ryan's foyer just... 291 00:13:16,729 --> 00:13:18,731 slapped me across the face, 292 00:13:18,831 --> 00:13:22,969 and Ryan caught it out of the corner of his eye 293 00:13:23,069 --> 00:13:26,339 and was like, "Touch her again, and I will end you." 294 00:13:28,274 --> 00:13:30,076 How did you feel? 295 00:13:30,176 --> 00:13:31,878 Sad, embarrassed. 296 00:13:33,379 --> 00:13:34,380 Scared. 297 00:13:35,948 --> 00:13:39,218 But I think that Jesse sensed something in me 298 00:13:39,319 --> 00:13:40,953 that he was able to exploit... 299 00:13:42,355 --> 00:13:43,923 that I didn't even realize was there. 300 00:13:45,158 --> 00:13:46,592 And so what we started doing was breaking up 301 00:13:46,693 --> 00:13:47,660 and getting back together and breaking up 302 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,495 and getting back together. 303 00:13:49,595 --> 00:13:50,930 Because he's still sweet. 304 00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:54,901 He's still very loving when we're behind closed doors. 305 00:13:55,001 --> 00:13:58,805 He's still making my friends laugh, making me laugh. 306 00:13:58,905 --> 00:14:01,441 He's still showering me with attention. 307 00:14:02,775 --> 00:14:05,712 And I'm like, "Maybe he just had a bad day." 308 00:14:07,980 --> 00:14:13,619 She was vulnerable at that time, and I think he used that 309 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,456 as a chance to love bomb her when she really needed, 310 00:14:16,556 --> 00:14:18,257 like, love and softness. 311 00:14:19,492 --> 00:14:23,996 But Jesse's abuse really was cyclical and snowballing. 312 00:14:24,097 --> 00:14:25,732 He always had something to say about my weight. 313 00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:31,270 He would hand me tank tops and say, "Here's three of them. 314 00:14:31,371 --> 00:14:32,572 "Just put them on so your stomach's 315 00:14:32,672 --> 00:14:34,507 a little bit flatter." 316 00:14:34,607 --> 00:14:37,877 He would yell and scream and then disappear for days 317 00:14:37,977 --> 00:14:39,746 or weeks at a time and come back. 318 00:14:39,846 --> 00:14:44,016 And he would call me repeatedly, ruin my nights. 319 00:14:45,518 --> 00:14:49,055 He had a knack for just materializing out of nowhere, 320 00:14:49,155 --> 00:14:50,790 anywhere I was. 321 00:14:50,890 --> 00:14:52,558 I just would get into survival mode. 322 00:14:52,658 --> 00:14:54,927 Like, I have to keep him even-tempered 323 00:14:55,027 --> 00:14:57,029 because I don't know what's gonna happen. 324 00:14:57,130 --> 00:14:58,331 And at this point, are you still working? 325 00:14:58,431 --> 00:15:00,133 Is he still working? What's his career at this time? 326 00:15:00,233 --> 00:15:03,469 So he is not working. He didn't ever hold a job. 327 00:15:03,569 --> 00:15:07,874 So very quickly it became, "Hey, can you pay for this? 328 00:15:07,974 --> 00:15:09,308 Hey, can you pay for that?" 329 00:15:09,409 --> 00:15:11,010 And then I went and got a part-time job 330 00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:13,346 because I couldn't sustain paying both of our bills. 331 00:15:15,047 --> 00:15:18,851 Get him a motorcycle, cost me seven grand, put it on credit. 332 00:15:18,951 --> 00:15:22,955 Got him an Omega watch, put it on credit, $3,000. 333 00:15:23,055 --> 00:15:25,258 I felt like a credit card. 334 00:15:26,426 --> 00:15:28,895 That was always the way he operated. 335 00:15:28,995 --> 00:15:30,863 How much would Jenn buy him? 336 00:15:30,963 --> 00:15:35,401 How much would she put up with derogatory terms or words? 337 00:15:35,501 --> 00:15:38,905 And the more she would put up with, the more he would try. 338 00:15:39,005 --> 00:15:40,339 And I didn't want to, like, 339 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,909 impose any opinions on Jenn. 340 00:15:43,009 --> 00:15:47,413 I can remember my mom telling her plenty in front of me. 341 00:15:47,513 --> 00:15:49,782 "What are you doing with him? Get the [bleep] out!" 342 00:15:49,882 --> 00:15:51,250 Because she had been there. 343 00:15:53,386 --> 00:15:55,388 [Elizabeth] Amy's parents divorced when she was a newborn, 344 00:15:55,488 --> 00:15:57,824 and Jessie was three years old. 345 00:15:57,924 --> 00:16:00,059 Years later, Hadas revealed that her husband had been 346 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:01,494 unfaithful and abusive. 347 00:16:02,528 --> 00:16:04,897 The marriage ended, but the damage didn't, 348 00:16:04,997 --> 00:16:07,633 as she began to recognize the cycle of abuse resurfacing 349 00:16:07,733 --> 00:16:10,203 in her son, which is why when new women came into 350 00:16:10,303 --> 00:16:13,005 Jessie's life, Hadas didn't see romance. 351 00:16:13,105 --> 00:16:14,340 She saw warning signs. 352 00:16:15,541 --> 00:16:19,712 My mom cared for Jenn, she wanted her to... 353 00:16:21,681 --> 00:16:22,648 be free of him. 354 00:16:24,951 --> 00:16:26,352 It was New Year's Eve... 355 00:16:27,553 --> 00:16:28,554 of 2006. 356 00:16:30,189 --> 00:16:33,459 I'm driving to go pick up Jesse because I want to talk to him 357 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:36,963 about what happened on my birthday and see if we're good. 358 00:16:37,063 --> 00:16:39,098 And my car literally starts shooting flames out 359 00:16:39,198 --> 00:16:40,399 of the hood. 360 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:42,835 So I pull it over under the overpass and, you know, 361 00:16:42,935 --> 00:16:45,037 some passerby has called 911 by this time. 362 00:16:46,539 --> 00:16:47,640 And I called Jesse. 363 00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:49,742 I'm like, "Hey, can you come and pick me up?" 364 00:16:49,842 --> 00:16:51,444 He's like, "No, when you're done, 365 00:16:51,544 --> 00:16:52,712 you can just come over here." 366 00:16:54,046 --> 00:16:55,181 And I call Ryan. 367 00:16:56,449 --> 00:16:58,518 And Ryan shows up in five minutes. 368 00:16:58,618 --> 00:17:00,853 He gets all my stuff in his car. 369 00:17:00,953 --> 00:17:03,523 And that's when Jesse decides to show up. 370 00:17:03,623 --> 00:17:07,492 And Ryan and him just start yelling and screaming 371 00:17:07,593 --> 00:17:11,531 at each other, with my car still smoking, the cops still there. 372 00:17:11,631 --> 00:17:14,000 And Ryan goes, "You're gonna stay the F away from her." 373 00:17:15,635 --> 00:17:17,703 And Jesse disappeared after that. 374 00:17:22,575 --> 00:17:26,244 [Amy] Around those months that they dated, Jesse was not home 375 00:17:26,345 --> 00:17:27,413 that many months. 376 00:17:27,512 --> 00:17:30,283 Like, my mom wasn't allowing him to live there a lot. 377 00:17:30,383 --> 00:17:32,885 She would kick him out for certain things. 378 00:17:33,986 --> 00:17:35,755 He told us he was unhoused at that time. 379 00:17:36,789 --> 00:17:41,327 He materializes out of nowhere one day at my parents' house. 380 00:17:41,427 --> 00:17:42,562 [knocking on door] 381 00:17:42,662 --> 00:17:45,431 No longer has the watch that I bought him. 382 00:17:45,531 --> 00:17:47,867 He no longer has the motorcycle that I bought him. 383 00:17:48,868 --> 00:17:49,869 He has this Bronco. 384 00:17:51,537 --> 00:17:53,940 Why are you here? You and I are done. 385 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,709 I said, "That last time was too much." 386 00:17:56,809 --> 00:17:59,679 And he goes, "No, no, no, I need to apologize." 387 00:17:59,779 --> 00:18:02,048 And I was like, "No, go home." 388 00:18:02,148 --> 00:18:03,916 He goes, "I'm not living with my mom anymore. 389 00:18:04,016 --> 00:18:07,219 She kicked me out. Please just let me come in." 390 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,089 He would tell us he would, like, stay in his car... 391 00:18:11,724 --> 00:18:14,660 under a friend's restaurant in like an underground parking lot. 392 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,862 It turns out he was actually staying with one of 393 00:18:16,963 --> 00:18:20,967 his best friend's dads in, like, a gated community in Calabasas. 394 00:18:21,067 --> 00:18:22,735 I loved him. I did. 395 00:18:22,835 --> 00:18:24,470 I... 396 00:18:24,570 --> 00:18:27,540 I think in some way I thought that I could save him. 397 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,609 So when he leaned in to kiss me, I let him, and I was like, 398 00:18:29,709 --> 00:18:31,377 "Just come in the house, take a shower, and then leave." 399 00:18:32,645 --> 00:18:33,779 And I didn't hear from him again until 400 00:18:33,879 --> 00:18:35,748 Super Bowl Sunday of 2007. 401 00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:38,150 And what happened then? 402 00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:39,785 [Jenn] He calls me out of nowhere. 403 00:18:39,885 --> 00:18:41,320 He's like, "Hey, let's go for a canyon drive." 404 00:18:41,420 --> 00:18:43,122 And I was like, "What do you mean, 405 00:18:43,222 --> 00:18:45,124 "let's go for a canyon drive? It's Super Bowl Sunday. 406 00:18:45,224 --> 00:18:46,392 I have plans." 407 00:18:46,492 --> 00:18:47,994 He goes, "Come on, you still got a couple hours 408 00:18:48,094 --> 00:18:49,128 before you have to be anywhere." 409 00:18:49,228 --> 00:18:50,329 I'm like, "Fine." 410 00:18:52,732 --> 00:18:54,934 We go up to Ventura, 411 00:18:55,034 --> 00:18:57,069 and he makes an illegal turn in front of a cop. 412 00:18:59,572 --> 00:19:03,509 The cop starts following us, puts the lights on. 413 00:19:03,609 --> 00:19:06,112 Jesse pulls over, and he goes, "I need you not to freak out, 414 00:19:06,212 --> 00:19:08,047 but we're most likely about to get arrested right now." 415 00:19:09,682 --> 00:19:11,117 And I turn and look at him, and I'm like, 416 00:19:11,217 --> 00:19:13,252 "What in the hell did you do?" 417 00:19:13,352 --> 00:19:14,353 [siren chirps] 418 00:19:19,325 --> 00:19:21,961 Police lights behind me, guns drawn. 419 00:19:22,061 --> 00:19:24,930 Cop pulls me out of the car, puts me in cuffs, puts Jesse in 420 00:19:25,031 --> 00:19:25,998 the back of the cop car. 421 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,535 And I'm like... 422 00:19:29,635 --> 00:19:30,770 "How is this my life?" 423 00:19:35,174 --> 00:19:38,244 Jesse thought it would be a brilliant idea to take 424 00:19:38,344 --> 00:19:43,649 the plates off my Alero and put it on his Ford Bronco. 425 00:19:43,749 --> 00:19:44,884 -Did you not notice that? -No. 426 00:19:45,918 --> 00:19:49,355 He stole them because his tags had expired. 427 00:19:50,723 --> 00:19:51,691 So here we are. 428 00:19:51,791 --> 00:19:55,027 They assume that I have given him the plates, 429 00:19:55,127 --> 00:19:56,629 and they probably think this car is stolen. 430 00:19:56,729 --> 00:19:58,330 [indistinct radio chatter] 431 00:19:58,431 --> 00:19:59,398 They call for backup. 432 00:20:00,433 --> 00:20:02,001 They're gonna take him to jail. 433 00:20:02,101 --> 00:20:04,236 Then I'm gonna answer some questions. 434 00:20:05,671 --> 00:20:08,574 I was crying the entire time. I don't know what to do. 435 00:20:10,443 --> 00:20:12,678 But the cops let me go. 436 00:20:15,347 --> 00:20:16,782 And then the phone calls started. 437 00:20:17,783 --> 00:20:21,120 I must have fielded 100 calls. "Come and bail me out. 438 00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:22,888 "Come and bail me out. Come and bail me out. 439 00:20:22,988 --> 00:20:26,659 Will you please, please, please just come and visit me?" 440 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:29,795 -Did you think that was gonna be a huge wake-up call for him? -[Jenn] Yeah. 441 00:20:29,895 --> 00:20:32,765 I was like, "Maybe this will scare him." 442 00:20:32,865 --> 00:20:34,567 Maybe he'll be like, "I don't want to do this again." 443 00:20:35,968 --> 00:20:38,504 And they released him on his own recognizance. 444 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,274 For a couple weeks there, 445 00:20:43,743 --> 00:20:46,312 he was back to the guy I first met. 446 00:20:48,214 --> 00:20:50,049 I was like, maybe we're gonna be fine. 447 00:20:51,917 --> 00:20:55,254 Then, out of nowhere, just radio silence... 448 00:20:56,655 --> 00:20:57,656 for weeks. 449 00:20:58,924 --> 00:21:02,561 We didn't talk again until my parents' anniversary. 450 00:21:03,596 --> 00:21:06,265 My mom and I had gone out to the mall to go 451 00:21:06,365 --> 00:21:08,267 get my dad his gift. 452 00:21:08,367 --> 00:21:10,803 We're walking to the car, 453 00:21:10,903 --> 00:21:13,172 and all of a sudden, I hear somebody scream my name. 454 00:21:14,373 --> 00:21:17,042 And my mom looks at me and goes, "That's Jesse." 455 00:21:17,143 --> 00:21:19,712 I'm like, "Mom, there's no way he knows where I am." 456 00:21:20,846 --> 00:21:22,948 And he falls into my arms. 457 00:21:24,150 --> 00:21:25,885 And I go, "What's wrong with you?" 458 00:21:25,985 --> 00:21:27,686 He goes, "I don't know." 459 00:21:27,787 --> 00:21:29,155 "Where's your car?" 460 00:21:29,255 --> 00:21:30,589 "It's under the restaurant." 461 00:21:32,224 --> 00:21:33,192 I take him there, 462 00:21:34,326 --> 00:21:37,797 and I leave him there, and my mom and I go back 463 00:21:37,897 --> 00:21:39,298 to the house. 464 00:21:39,398 --> 00:21:40,366 My parents leave. 465 00:21:41,667 --> 00:21:44,303 I'm just getting ready to watch some TV, and... 466 00:21:44,403 --> 00:21:46,205 -[doorbell chimes] -...my doorbell rings. 467 00:21:48,174 --> 00:21:50,876 Jesse's curled up in a ball on my parents' front porch. 468 00:21:52,311 --> 00:21:54,079 What was his physical appearance like at this point? 469 00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:58,684 He looked like he probably had started doing cocaine again. 470 00:21:58,784 --> 00:21:59,752 And I go, "Jesse... 471 00:22:00,986 --> 00:22:02,221 what in the hell is wrong with you?" 472 00:22:02,321 --> 00:22:03,956 He goes, "I don't know." 473 00:22:04,056 --> 00:22:05,224 "Where have you been?" 474 00:22:05,324 --> 00:22:06,992 "I don't know." "Why are you here?" 475 00:22:07,092 --> 00:22:08,260 "I don't know." 476 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:10,129 "Will you go in the house, take a shower, get some sleep, 477 00:22:10,229 --> 00:22:11,964 and then get the F out of my parents' house?" 478 00:22:14,633 --> 00:22:15,601 He takes a shower. 479 00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:19,071 Sleeps for about two and a half hours. 480 00:22:20,906 --> 00:22:23,409 Comes out towards the kitchen, 481 00:22:24,743 --> 00:22:27,246 and he pushes me up against the wall with a knife 482 00:22:27,346 --> 00:22:28,314 at my neck. 483 00:22:29,748 --> 00:22:31,917 And I'm like, "You have to go." 484 00:22:32,017 --> 00:22:34,253 And he's like, "Do you really want me to go?" 485 00:22:34,353 --> 00:22:36,889 And all of a sudden, this man that I was very, very afraid of 486 00:22:36,989 --> 00:22:38,357 for a very long time, I'm like, 487 00:22:38,457 --> 00:22:40,226 I'm gonna go toe-to-toe with him right now. 488 00:22:40,326 --> 00:22:42,127 If I die in the process, 489 00:22:42,228 --> 00:22:43,529 at least I went down fighting. 490 00:22:44,697 --> 00:22:45,698 "I want you to go." 491 00:22:46,665 --> 00:22:48,734 He leans over, kisses me on the forehead, and he says, 492 00:22:48,834 --> 00:22:51,437 "OK, fine," and walks out without another word. 493 00:22:53,873 --> 00:22:55,174 That's how our relationship ended. 494 00:22:56,508 --> 00:22:58,444 Quietly and violently in my parents' kitchen. 495 00:22:59,778 --> 00:23:01,447 Did you think there was a chance he could kill you? 496 00:23:01,547 --> 00:23:04,483 Oh, yeah. 100%. 497 00:23:06,785 --> 00:23:08,687 So I was like, wake up. 498 00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:12,291 I want to be me. 499 00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:13,993 I'm going to go back to school because I want to get 500 00:23:14,093 --> 00:23:15,494 my degree -- it's something that's been heavy 501 00:23:15,594 --> 00:23:17,897 on my heart for years. 502 00:23:17,997 --> 00:23:20,232 I had gotten a dog, and I was really trying to 503 00:23:20,332 --> 00:23:22,167 rebuild my life. 504 00:23:22,268 --> 00:23:23,869 I like the peace and quiet. 505 00:23:23,969 --> 00:23:25,471 My parents like the peace and quiet. 506 00:23:26,605 --> 00:23:27,606 Everybody is happy. 507 00:23:31,977 --> 00:23:36,015 [Amy] At this time, things were escalating very badly between 508 00:23:36,115 --> 00:23:38,050 my mom and my brother. 509 00:23:38,150 --> 00:23:40,486 Often, like, the worst of the abuse would happen when 510 00:23:40,586 --> 00:23:43,355 somebody else wasn't home -- when it wasn't, quote-unquote, 511 00:23:43,455 --> 00:23:44,423 two against one. 512 00:23:45,557 --> 00:23:48,360 One day, he was home with my mom alone. 513 00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:50,663 I don't know what precipitated the argument. 514 00:23:50,763 --> 00:23:52,398 Really, nothing needed to. 515 00:23:52,498 --> 00:23:55,134 Like, he would explode over very little. 516 00:23:55,234 --> 00:23:59,071 But apparently, he attacked her with 517 00:23:59,171 --> 00:24:01,740 an aerosol can and a lighter. 518 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,843 -A homemade flamethrower. -[police sirens approach] 519 00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:11,517 [Edward] At that point, Hadas called 911. 520 00:24:11,617 --> 00:24:14,119 Jesse ended up storming out of the house. 521 00:24:14,219 --> 00:24:16,889 A couple hours later, he came back home, 522 00:24:16,989 --> 00:24:20,192 and Hadas tripped an emergency alarm. 523 00:24:20,292 --> 00:24:24,296 He was in the kitchen with a knife in his hand, 524 00:24:24,396 --> 00:24:26,799 making a comment, "They're not gonna take me alive. 525 00:24:26,899 --> 00:24:29,435 I'm not gonna cooperate." 526 00:24:29,535 --> 00:24:31,704 The deputies came into the house. 527 00:24:31,804 --> 00:24:34,940 -[sirens wailing] -And there was a use of force to take him into custody. 528 00:24:37,609 --> 00:24:39,244 [Elizabeth] After Jesse was arrested, he remained in jail 529 00:24:39,345 --> 00:24:40,946 for two months. 530 00:24:41,046 --> 00:24:44,216 Because this was a violent crime and he had prior arrests, 531 00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:46,318 this charge was considered a strike offense, 532 00:24:46,418 --> 00:24:49,154 making it a felony that would carry a harsher sentence. 533 00:24:50,723 --> 00:24:53,292 Torn over the long-term implications, Hadas asked 534 00:24:53,392 --> 00:24:56,128 the district attorney not to press charges against her son. 535 00:24:57,496 --> 00:25:00,399 [Edward] The maternal part of her kicked in. 536 00:25:00,499 --> 00:25:04,269 -Sure. -And she decided that he's learned his lesson 537 00:25:04,370 --> 00:25:06,405 and that he'll change as a result of that. 538 00:25:07,473 --> 00:25:09,308 And then he came right back to the house, or did he go live 539 00:25:09,408 --> 00:25:10,676 with other friends after that? 540 00:25:10,776 --> 00:25:13,112 That was one of those stages where he would be living with 541 00:25:13,212 --> 00:25:15,714 a friend or living in his car, quote-unquote. 542 00:25:15,814 --> 00:25:18,517 Was he dating Jenn at the time that he went to jail for that? 543 00:25:18,617 --> 00:25:21,020 I don't believe he was dating Jenn at the time. 544 00:25:23,689 --> 00:25:24,656 I was sad. 545 00:25:26,325 --> 00:25:28,494 I was fearful for his mom and sister. 546 00:25:29,828 --> 00:25:32,064 But he called me out of the blue one day. 547 00:25:32,164 --> 00:25:34,666 And he sounded healthy and happy. 548 00:25:34,767 --> 00:25:36,301 And he asked if we could meet up for lunch. 549 00:25:37,569 --> 00:25:41,607 And immediately, I was like, "OK, just lunch." 550 00:25:43,942 --> 00:25:48,480 I think that even staying friends with Jesse was 551 00:25:48,580 --> 00:25:50,616 for my own safety. 552 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:54,686 If I keep him at arm's length, maybe he'll leave me alone. 553 00:25:54,787 --> 00:25:56,555 [ambient chatter] 554 00:25:56,655 --> 00:25:58,924 When he met me, he leaned in to kiss me and I kind of just 555 00:25:59,024 --> 00:26:01,226 went... "I'm with somebody." 556 00:26:01,326 --> 00:26:03,095 I said, "This is not what this is. 557 00:26:03,195 --> 00:26:06,065 I just want to make sure you're OK." 558 00:26:07,466 --> 00:26:08,434 We had a nice lunch. 559 00:26:09,935 --> 00:26:12,137 I went home, went back to my normal life, 560 00:26:12,237 --> 00:26:13,739 and he pretty much left me alone. 561 00:26:18,010 --> 00:26:20,779 And then, September... 562 00:26:22,714 --> 00:26:23,949 I get a phone call from him. 563 00:26:27,219 --> 00:26:28,954 I had just finished class. 564 00:26:30,255 --> 00:26:33,125 My mom and I are talking for a minute, and we go take 565 00:26:33,225 --> 00:26:34,960 my dog Molly for a walk. 566 00:26:36,962 --> 00:26:38,831 So it's about 10:45 at this time. 567 00:26:39,998 --> 00:26:42,134 And my phone rings, and it's Jesse. 568 00:26:42,234 --> 00:26:44,269 He goes, "Let's go out for a drink." 569 00:26:44,369 --> 00:26:45,804 And I was like, 570 00:26:45,904 --> 00:26:48,207 "Call me back in 15 minutes, I'll see how I'm feeling." 571 00:26:52,044 --> 00:26:54,179 Jesse was always the, "I'll call back in 15 minutes" -- 572 00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:56,148 I'll call you back in 30, was more like it, 573 00:26:56,248 --> 00:26:59,485 or 45 -- but he called me back 15 minutes exactly. 574 00:27:03,088 --> 00:27:04,323 He goes, "Hey, are you sitting down?" 575 00:27:04,423 --> 00:27:06,158 And I was like, "No, why?" 576 00:27:06,258 --> 00:27:07,526 And he goes, "You should sit down." 577 00:27:10,562 --> 00:27:11,763 "What do you mean I should sit down?" 578 00:27:11,864 --> 00:27:13,732 And he goes, "I think I just killed my mom." 579 00:27:18,704 --> 00:27:21,340 -[Elizabeth] Jessie said he killed his mom. -Yeah. 580 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,008 And it's dead silence. 581 00:27:23,108 --> 00:27:25,010 And I'm like, "Jesse Bernard Winnick... 582 00:27:26,745 --> 00:27:28,814 what are you talking about?" 583 00:27:28,914 --> 00:27:31,083 He goes, "I'm just kidding. Let's go get that drink. 584 00:27:31,183 --> 00:27:32,584 I'll be at your parents' house in 10 minutes." 585 00:27:36,555 --> 00:27:39,858 Throughout the day, like, I had increasingly clocked 586 00:27:39,958 --> 00:27:42,094 a little bit of tension between my mom and my brother. 587 00:27:42,194 --> 00:27:44,263 I was getting kind of back-to-back phone calls 588 00:27:44,363 --> 00:27:45,898 from each of them. 589 00:27:45,998 --> 00:27:48,367 "Hey, when are you gonna be home? 590 00:27:48,467 --> 00:27:49,968 Hey, when are you gonna be home?" 591 00:27:50,068 --> 00:27:51,537 And I said, "I don't know. Kind of told you 592 00:27:51,637 --> 00:27:52,971 it would be a late night." 593 00:27:53,071 --> 00:27:54,473 Like, I'm kind of annoyed at both of them now 594 00:27:54,573 --> 00:27:56,375 because I am an adult now. 595 00:27:57,809 --> 00:28:01,113 Eventually, I called Jesse to let him know that I was 596 00:28:01,213 --> 00:28:04,950 on my way home. He doesn't pick up. 597 00:28:06,018 --> 00:28:09,821 So I call home. My mom, she doesn't pick up. 598 00:28:12,524 --> 00:28:13,525 So I called Jesse back. 599 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,162 He was like, "Hey" -- really, really short with me. 600 00:28:17,262 --> 00:28:18,263 And I was like, "Hey... 601 00:28:19,264 --> 00:28:21,166 you know, I just got off work. I'm on my way home." 602 00:28:21,266 --> 00:28:23,101 And he said, "Don't go home." 603 00:28:24,703 --> 00:28:25,671 And he hung up. 604 00:28:27,206 --> 00:28:28,173 [Jenn] Jesse was dramatic. 605 00:28:29,508 --> 00:28:31,843 He always blew things out of proportion. 606 00:28:32,878 --> 00:28:33,879 There's just no way. 607 00:28:33,979 --> 00:28:37,216 He was so calm, like eerie-calm. 608 00:28:39,585 --> 00:28:40,552 [Amy] So I called Jesse again. 609 00:28:41,620 --> 00:28:44,156 And he answered. 610 00:28:44,256 --> 00:28:46,291 And I said, "Why would I not go home?" 611 00:28:46,391 --> 00:28:48,694 He said, "Don't go home. I killed Mom." 612 00:28:50,262 --> 00:28:51,296 [voice straining] And I was like, "What? 613 00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:53,131 "Like, you've got to be kidding me -- 614 00:28:53,232 --> 00:28:54,466 what are you talking -- no!" 615 00:28:54,566 --> 00:28:56,768 And he said, "Yes, I killed Mom. Don't go home." 616 00:28:56,868 --> 00:28:57,903 And he hung up. 617 00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:02,307 I call 911. I have to. 618 00:29:02,407 --> 00:29:05,544 Like, what if she's home and dying actively? 619 00:29:05,644 --> 00:29:07,980 I don't know what the situation was. 620 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,047 [phone dial pad beeping] 621 00:29:10,148 --> 00:29:12,084 [911 call audio playing] 622 00:29:22,494 --> 00:29:23,829 [Jenn] He pulls up in his mom's Expedition. 623 00:29:25,364 --> 00:29:27,266 She never lets him drive that car, ever. 624 00:29:29,468 --> 00:29:31,903 That's when I knew something was wrong. 625 00:29:32,004 --> 00:29:35,240 I immediately thought, if he's here to kill me, 626 00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:38,443 at least my parents are not gonna be collateral damage. 627 00:29:38,543 --> 00:29:41,580 I look at my mom. "Take the license plate down. 628 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,315 If I'm not home in 10 minutes, call the cops." 629 00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:46,485 [911 call audio playing] 630 00:29:46,585 --> 00:29:48,620 [Amy screaming] 631 00:29:50,689 --> 00:29:54,226 He pulls open his cellphone, and as he sets it in my lap, 632 00:29:54,326 --> 00:29:55,327 he starts driving. 633 00:29:58,096 --> 00:30:01,733 I look at the phone, the picture -- 634 00:30:01,833 --> 00:30:02,834 his mom in the kitchen. 635 00:30:04,569 --> 00:30:08,907 She was lying on the floor in a very large pool of blood with 636 00:30:09,007 --> 00:30:11,143 a knife sticking out of her neck still. 637 00:30:13,278 --> 00:30:15,714 And I thought, if she's still alive, 638 00:30:15,814 --> 00:30:17,849 I do not want her hearing me screaming 639 00:30:17,949 --> 00:30:19,384 as her last sounds. 640 00:30:20,619 --> 00:30:23,755 So I bent over her leg and I kissed her leg. 641 00:30:25,891 --> 00:30:27,726 And I ran out of the house. 642 00:30:27,826 --> 00:30:29,594 And right as I ran out of the house, the police 643 00:30:29,695 --> 00:30:31,830 were pulling up. -[sirens wailing] 644 00:30:31,930 --> 00:30:33,598 I didn't even notice her car was gone. 645 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:39,104 [Jenn] He's driving. 646 00:30:39,204 --> 00:30:41,073 And as I shut the phone, he looks at me and he goes, 647 00:30:41,173 --> 00:30:42,140 "Do you believe me now?" 648 00:30:43,942 --> 00:30:46,478 And I look at him and I said, "Jesse, what happened?" 649 00:30:48,113 --> 00:30:49,481 And right as we hit the stop sign, 650 00:30:49,581 --> 00:30:50,882 he looks me dead in the eye and goes, 651 00:30:50,982 --> 00:30:52,684 "I just wanted her to shut the [bleep] up." 652 00:30:53,919 --> 00:30:54,886 And then he made a right turn. 653 00:30:56,855 --> 00:30:59,791 [Amy] Allegedly, he was making a sandwich 654 00:30:59,891 --> 00:31:02,194 for himself in the kitchen. 655 00:31:02,294 --> 00:31:05,897 My mom harked on him to clean up after himself, 656 00:31:05,997 --> 00:31:07,799 and he said he didn't want to. 657 00:31:07,899 --> 00:31:10,569 She said, "No, I want to use the counter, clean up." 658 00:31:12,237 --> 00:31:14,206 And he stabbed her with the knife that he was making 659 00:31:14,306 --> 00:31:15,307 the sandwich with. 660 00:31:16,608 --> 00:31:18,944 [Jenn] I'm sitting here, and he's holding my hand. 661 00:31:19,044 --> 00:31:21,646 I don't want to say anything that's gonna set him off. 662 00:31:21,747 --> 00:31:25,650 I...finally dare to turn and look at him, 663 00:31:25,751 --> 00:31:27,586 and you could see some of the blood 664 00:31:27,686 --> 00:31:29,788 underneath his sweatshirt. 665 00:31:29,888 --> 00:31:31,723 Did you think about getting out of the car this time? 666 00:31:31,823 --> 00:31:32,924 [Jenn] Yes. 667 00:31:33,024 --> 00:31:34,359 I thought about jumping out a couple times. 668 00:31:37,262 --> 00:31:38,897 This light turns red. 669 00:31:38,997 --> 00:31:40,265 All of a sudden, he turns and looks at me 670 00:31:40,365 --> 00:31:42,467 and goes, "It's a nice car, though, huh?" 671 00:31:43,869 --> 00:31:44,836 That's sick. 672 00:31:46,405 --> 00:31:47,839 And I said... 673 00:31:47,939 --> 00:31:49,207 "I need you to take me home." 674 00:31:50,609 --> 00:31:51,576 And he doesn't say anything. 675 00:31:52,744 --> 00:31:54,146 Both hands on the wheel. 676 00:31:54,246 --> 00:31:56,581 And I'm like, "Jesse, take me home 677 00:31:56,681 --> 00:31:58,417 "and do not get me any more involved in this 678 00:31:58,517 --> 00:31:59,651 if you love me." 679 00:31:59,751 --> 00:32:02,354 And then I hear the turn signal go on. 680 00:32:03,588 --> 00:32:05,257 [turn signal ticking] 681 00:32:08,293 --> 00:32:09,261 He pulls over. 682 00:32:10,595 --> 00:32:12,564 My mom is still standing out here with Molly. 683 00:32:12,664 --> 00:32:14,166 She stayed the entire time. 684 00:32:16,034 --> 00:32:17,736 And as soon as I get the door open, 685 00:32:17,836 --> 00:32:19,738 he grabs my arm and pulls me back 686 00:32:19,838 --> 00:32:20,906 so that we're sitting... 687 00:32:22,107 --> 00:32:23,175 forehead-to-forehead. 688 00:32:23,275 --> 00:32:25,844 And he looks at me and goes, "I really did love you, 689 00:32:25,944 --> 00:32:26,945 you know that?" 690 00:32:29,381 --> 00:32:31,383 And I grab his hand and I said, "I know that now." 691 00:32:37,189 --> 00:32:40,058 I went to sleep and the next morning he was making headlines 692 00:32:40,158 --> 00:32:42,661 and he was on the news. 693 00:32:47,566 --> 00:32:50,001 I want to say it was two, three days afterwards. 694 00:32:50,101 --> 00:32:53,638 Detectives came, questioned me, asked me about my involvement 695 00:32:53,738 --> 00:32:55,407 because my prints were in the car. 696 00:32:55,507 --> 00:32:57,375 My prints were at the house still. 697 00:32:57,476 --> 00:32:58,910 I was one of the first people he called. 698 00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:03,114 That must have been terrifying. 699 00:33:03,215 --> 00:33:04,182 [Jenn] Oh, I was scared to death. 700 00:33:06,785 --> 00:33:08,653 [Elizabeth] Do you think what saved you was the fact 701 00:33:08,753 --> 00:33:11,189 that you "shut the F up"? 702 00:33:11,289 --> 00:33:12,924 Yeah. 703 00:33:13,024 --> 00:33:15,093 I just stopped trying to fight who he was. 704 00:33:15,193 --> 00:33:16,161 I stopped trying to fight... 705 00:33:17,295 --> 00:33:18,530 anything. 706 00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:19,598 I also think that... 707 00:33:21,666 --> 00:33:22,634 he did love me... 708 00:33:23,802 --> 00:33:26,104 in the only way that he knew how, which... 709 00:33:29,174 --> 00:33:34,312 is hurtful and disgusting all at the same time, 710 00:33:34,412 --> 00:33:36,414 because that was not love. 711 00:33:38,416 --> 00:33:40,752 In the moment and after her murder, 712 00:33:40,852 --> 00:33:42,988 I've reflected many times about the fact 713 00:33:43,088 --> 00:33:45,690 that I truly do believe that she sacrificed her life 714 00:33:45,790 --> 00:33:47,192 so I could be free of him. 715 00:33:50,028 --> 00:33:52,230 I think she knew in her heart she was never gonna 716 00:33:52,330 --> 00:33:55,033 break the cycle, and she had to for me. 717 00:33:56,668 --> 00:34:01,473 I think the moment he became a murderer, the veil was 718 00:34:01,573 --> 00:34:05,243 lifted, and I looked back and I saw so much 719 00:34:05,343 --> 00:34:09,748 that I hadn't ever designated as abuse. 720 00:34:09,848 --> 00:34:12,516 I remember sitting with my aunts in my aunt's kitchen 721 00:34:12,617 --> 00:34:13,818 right after he had killed her, 722 00:34:15,387 --> 00:34:18,188 and one of my aunt was saying, "I just can't believe it. 723 00:34:18,290 --> 00:34:19,591 Where did this come from?" 724 00:34:19,690 --> 00:34:23,395 I said, "He's been an abuser. He sexually abused me." 725 00:34:28,667 --> 00:34:31,703 Wow -- how exactly did he sexually abuse you? 726 00:34:31,803 --> 00:34:35,674 I want to say I was in seventh grade, so I was probably 12. 727 00:34:35,774 --> 00:34:38,710 Jesse had forced me into performing sexual acts 728 00:34:38,810 --> 00:34:41,112 on myself in front of him. 729 00:34:41,212 --> 00:34:44,382 He would keep those objects that he forced me to 730 00:34:44,482 --> 00:34:48,719 insert into myself as, like, totems of his abuse. 731 00:34:48,820 --> 00:34:51,690 And occasionally, I remember him, like, reaching his hand 732 00:34:51,790 --> 00:34:54,659 into his drawer and waving that item at me, as if, 733 00:34:54,759 --> 00:34:58,396 like, telling me, you better do whatever I'm telling you to do, 734 00:34:58,496 --> 00:35:01,933 which obviously builds shame into me surrounding that. 735 00:35:02,033 --> 00:35:04,169 So that's what kept me quiet about it. 736 00:35:06,171 --> 00:35:07,973 It lasted under a year. 737 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,876 Jesse would have been about 15. 738 00:35:11,977 --> 00:35:14,546 I never reported it to anyone, never said it. 739 00:35:15,647 --> 00:35:18,183 When she was murdered and I looked back, 740 00:35:20,518 --> 00:35:24,255 I felt guilty for not reporting the thing that I thought 741 00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:27,392 she would have ended their relationship at, 742 00:35:27,492 --> 00:35:29,694 and I could have potentially saved her in that way. 743 00:35:33,798 --> 00:35:35,967 The journey to get him convicted, even though he was 744 00:35:36,067 --> 00:35:37,535 admittedly guilty, was wild, too. 745 00:35:40,739 --> 00:35:43,808 [Jenn] I had nightmares for a very long time. 746 00:35:43,908 --> 00:35:46,277 I was scared he was gonna get off on a technicality 747 00:35:47,979 --> 00:35:49,280 and he was gonna come after me. 748 00:35:50,749 --> 00:35:53,284 [Elizabeth] The case against Jesse Winnick dragged on for years as 749 00:35:53,385 --> 00:35:55,387 he planned to enter a plea of not guilty 750 00:35:55,487 --> 00:35:57,489 by reason of insanity. 751 00:35:57,589 --> 00:35:59,658 Every time the case was set to go to trial, 752 00:35:59,758 --> 00:36:01,626 Jesse and his lawyer would find a way 753 00:36:01,726 --> 00:36:03,495 to delay proceedings, 754 00:36:03,595 --> 00:36:05,096 continuing the hurt he was inflicting 755 00:36:05,196 --> 00:36:06,631 on those closest to him. 756 00:36:08,233 --> 00:36:11,936 I really do have to stop myself and grieve 757 00:36:12,037 --> 00:36:14,139 the fact that I don't have a healthy sibling 758 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,675 and I don't have a relationship with him ever. 759 00:36:16,775 --> 00:36:20,979 I will never have, like, a close sibling to rely on. 760 00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:24,282 [Elizabeth] Four years into his twisted game, Jesse wrote a letter to 761 00:36:24,382 --> 00:36:27,552 another inmate giving them a plan to stalk and harass Amy, 762 00:36:28,553 --> 00:36:31,189 as well as accusing her of being complicit in the murder. 763 00:36:32,924 --> 00:36:35,427 I thank God every day for the inmate who turned 764 00:36:35,527 --> 00:36:39,064 that letter in, because Jesse pled guilty directly after that. 765 00:36:40,465 --> 00:36:44,002 [Elizabeth] Jesse finally agreed to plead no contest to secondary murder 766 00:36:44,102 --> 00:36:45,070 for killing his mother 767 00:36:46,104 --> 00:36:48,039 and was sentenced to 15 years to life. 768 00:36:50,375 --> 00:36:52,977 I think that Jesse has proven that 769 00:36:53,078 --> 00:36:54,512 this is who he is. 770 00:36:55,613 --> 00:36:59,818 Jesse was somebody who I saw as unlikely to do well while in 771 00:36:59,918 --> 00:37:04,923 custody and that the chances of him being paroled were really 772 00:37:05,023 --> 00:37:06,391 somewhere between slim and none. 773 00:37:08,326 --> 00:37:11,296 [Amy] It would only be nine years before I would have to see him 774 00:37:11,396 --> 00:37:13,798 in his first technical parole hearing, 775 00:37:13,898 --> 00:37:16,000 which was Zoom recorded, and in which, 776 00:37:16,101 --> 00:37:17,569 he threatened my life again. 777 00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:21,940 He basically took his thumb and kept slicing it across 778 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,641 his throat at me. 779 00:37:23,742 --> 00:37:28,379 The parole board had me mute and cut off my camera, 780 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,082 and then he ended up saying, "Peace out, I'm gonna 781 00:37:31,182 --> 00:37:32,484 postpone this for two years." 782 00:37:33,852 --> 00:37:35,920 By then, he had been sentenced for another crime. 783 00:37:38,890 --> 00:37:43,795 While in state prison, I know that he was convicted of 784 00:37:43,895 --> 00:37:45,997 attempted murder of a prison guard. 785 00:37:49,234 --> 00:37:53,138 When I found out about him shanking a prison guard, 786 00:37:54,706 --> 00:37:59,210 that just further confirmed what my initial view 787 00:37:59,310 --> 00:38:01,513 of Jesse was, that he was somebody 788 00:38:01,613 --> 00:38:04,182 who was a danger to society 789 00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:08,286 and likely would never be rehabilitated. 790 00:38:08,386 --> 00:38:10,955 The additional time that he received on top of 791 00:38:11,055 --> 00:38:13,424 the current 15-year-to-life sentence 792 00:38:13,525 --> 00:38:18,263 is reassuring in that it will, in all likelihood, 793 00:38:18,363 --> 00:38:21,266 keep him in prison for the remainder of his life. 794 00:38:23,201 --> 00:38:25,904 [Elizabeth] Jesse's up for parole every two years, but must maintain 795 00:38:26,004 --> 00:38:27,906 a clean record in prison to be considered. 796 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,643 He has yet to successfully stay out of trouble for that long. 797 00:38:34,612 --> 00:38:38,283 [Amy] I will fight his parole for as long as I humanly can. 798 00:38:38,383 --> 00:38:41,219 Hopefully, in 2030, he will receive 15 more years 799 00:38:41,319 --> 00:38:43,755 for my mom's murder, which I believe is the maximum he can. 800 00:38:48,793 --> 00:38:51,896 [Jenn] How many times could somebody have saved Hadas 801 00:38:51,996 --> 00:38:54,432 if they had watched the way Jesse was with me? 802 00:38:56,901 --> 00:38:58,736 That's the guilt I carry. 803 00:39:01,039 --> 00:39:02,941 Sometimes I still look over my shoulder. 804 00:39:04,709 --> 00:39:07,278 The statistics tell us I shouldn't be here. 805 00:39:08,279 --> 00:39:11,716 So every single day I got since then has been a gift. 806 00:39:12,917 --> 00:39:15,587 I love my life, and I have things to live for. 807 00:39:19,624 --> 00:39:22,260 And I have not spoken to him since that night in the car. 808 00:39:23,261 --> 00:39:25,430 But for a very long time, he was calling me every year 809 00:39:25,530 --> 00:39:27,131 on my birthday. 810 00:39:27,232 --> 00:39:29,901 -On your birthday? -Every year except this one. 811 00:39:30,001 --> 00:39:31,536 This was the first year that he didn't. 812 00:39:32,737 --> 00:39:34,439 Do you think Jesse feels remorse today? 813 00:39:34,539 --> 00:39:35,506 No. 814 00:39:37,408 --> 00:39:38,409 What do you think he thinks about when 815 00:39:38,509 --> 00:39:39,477 he's sitting in that jail cell? 816 00:39:44,415 --> 00:39:45,617 I don't think he cares. 817 00:39:46,651 --> 00:39:48,453 He's carried out attacks in prison. 818 00:39:48,553 --> 00:39:50,989 He's tried everything that he can to stay in. 819 00:39:51,089 --> 00:39:52,523 I think he's right where he wants to be. 820 00:39:58,062 --> 00:40:00,698 I don't think my brother murdered my mom for a reason. 821 00:40:00,798 --> 00:40:02,433 He murdered her for a million reasons. 822 00:40:03,801 --> 00:40:05,270 I believe I lived... 823 00:40:06,471 --> 00:40:09,474 to use her life as a lesson for other people. 824 00:40:11,442 --> 00:40:14,712 When people are murdered, so much of their life is lost 825 00:40:14,812 --> 00:40:16,381 to their death. 826 00:40:16,481 --> 00:40:21,019 What I want her to be remembered as is mother, 827 00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:25,256 mentor, and friend to all. It's because she really was. 828 00:40:33,298 --> 00:40:34,766 This season on Toxic... 829 00:40:34,866 --> 00:40:36,868 [woman I had my Prince Charming. 830 00:40:36,968 --> 00:40:39,504 I had everything I could have ever wanted. 831 00:40:39,604 --> 00:40:41,172 Like a true fairy tale. 832 00:40:42,106 --> 00:40:46,778 I was like, everything was too right, too perfect. 833 00:40:46,878 --> 00:40:49,013 [woman For 10 years he's been my best friend. 834 00:40:49,113 --> 00:40:51,849 But he's the most dangerous person in the world. 835 00:40:51,950 --> 00:40:53,351 [woman He was my pastor, 836 00:40:53,451 --> 00:40:55,219 and I should have been safe with him. 837 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,221 [woman What David did to Mandy 838 00:40:57,322 --> 00:40:59,390 we're talking about years. 839 00:40:59,490 --> 00:41:02,226 That's when he was really assumed guity. 840 00:41:03,661 --> 00:41:07,098 [man speaking] Stalking is a homicide in slow motion. 841 00:41:08,499 --> 00:41:12,904 I don't think anybody recognized how deeply disturbed he was. 842 00:41:13,004 --> 00:41:16,874 She knew how to work the system and it was just 843 00:41:16,975 --> 00:41:19,477 falling like cards-- da-da-da-da-da. 844 00:41:19,577 --> 00:41:21,179 People get killed over things like this. 845 00:41:21,279 --> 00:41:24,482 This is not the person that you thought. 846 00:41:24,582 --> 00:41:26,651 You know, eventually the truth came out. 847 00:41:26,751 --> 00:41:28,252 She didn't just go there to kill him. 848 00:41:28,353 --> 00:41:30,588 [gun shot] She was trying to erase him.